By Anne-Mette Klausen
The sight of croissants on the table cheers Drude Dahlerup. She skipped breakfast in Stockholm so that she could catch the flight to Copenhagen, and then she came by bus to Nørrebro, where she is now ready for the interview.
The 59-year-old professor of political science at Stockholm University has been up all night editing an international anthology which focuses on quotas and women’s representation in parliaments throughout the world, but no-one would notice that she has missed a night’s sleep. Drude Dahlerup is alert and her commitment to the task in hand is very apparent.
Drude Dahlerup is indisputably one of the sharpest spearheads in the Nordic countries within the field of gender research and the development of the women’s movement, with wide knowledge and an impressive scholarly production, not least her monumental two-volume work Rødstrømperne (The “Redstockings”: the Danish Feminists in the 1970s and 80s), on the development of the movement in Denmark. She is tailor-made for the position which she has now held for six years, one of the first Chairs in Gender Studies, established in 1998 at the Department of Political Science at Stockholm University.
“A professorship like this had never been advertised in Denmark, nor was there any prospect of one, so since my children had grown up and left home I said to myself, now it’s time for something new – and I got it!”
Drude Dahlerup, who was born and grew up in Denmark, packed up and moved to Stockholm. In her political work both as professional and feminist activist, Dahlerup’s focus was already largely on Scandinavia as a whole, and her husband is Swedish, so the move was no huge mental jump.
Nationality: Nordic
The wider Danish population connects Drude Dahlerup primarily with her political commitment to the Euro-sceptic organisation Junibevægelsen (The June Movement), which she inaugurated and was for many years spokeswoman for. On this topic she says, “Junibevægelsen has always just belonged to my spare time. I’ve resigned from being spokeswoman, but don’t feel too sure that I won’t suddenly appear on that front again”.
In the rest of the Nordic countries, however, Drude Dahlerup is regarded as first and foremost a bridge-builder between the women’s movement and feminist research. The Nordic countries have so much accepted Drude Dahlerup as their own that many people with whom NIKK have spoken in connection with this interview have described her as more Nordic than Danish. Does she feel this herself?
“Yes, absolutely. In the 1980s I worked on two large Nordic projects (Brytprojektet [(Breakthrough project)], an experiment in breaking down the deeply sex-segregated labour market; and the book We Have Waited Long Enough, which appeared in all five Nordic languages (ed.), and that gave me a wide knowledge of all the Nordic countries. I live and work in Stockholm, as you know, and travel a great deal around Scandinavia going to conferences and seminars, so I’m really not sure whether “home” still has any particular meaning for me. But in my soul I’m Danish, even though I think that both the politics and the landscape are more exciting in Sweden”, says Dahlerup, who doesn’t omit to add that she is also very fond of Norway, Finland and Iceland.
Intellectuals were flat-chested
Drude Dahlerup was one of the first “redstockings” to emerge in western Denmark in the 1970s. She was among the originators of the new Women’s Liberation Movement in Århus at the time when inspiration from the USA, UK and Holland blew in over Scandinavia. It isn’t so strange that the young Dahlerup was caught up by the new feminist trend.
“I’m one of three sisters who were brought up by a feminist mother, so my home provided me with good ballast. I studied at Aarhus University during the years when it was impossible not to notice the total non-synchronicity between our presence as women students – young, smart, clever – and the inimical conception of women that prevailed. As Vita Andersen [Danish author, ed.] wrote, women should “shut up and look pretty”. The men we studied with dated high-school girls, perhaps, and were embarrassed if the girls opened their mouths to say anything. The norms were totally insupportable”, says Drude Dahlerup, with irresistible conviction. “I can remember the times when we trembled as we asked the first questions about women and gender in class, and later heard down the grapevine that the first women’s research library, which we established in the 1980s, was called “the menstruation room” by our male colleagues. If a woman was intellectual she was bound to be flat-chested. The debate concerning this grotesque view of intellectual women has suddenly and surprisingly emerged again in Sweden, with the offensive led by a well-known woman editor.
“It was impossible to shatter the barriers alone. It had to be a collective endeavour. Because we were many, the movement grew to be incredibly strong, as happened with the Redstockings. And perhaps we can learn from that today. Some people think that if the Redstockings had only dressed a little more nicely and used makeup we might not have been regarded with such disapproval. I think that’s quite mistaken”.
– Why?
“We broke with some very rigid structures and distanced ourselves from traditional ideals of beauty; with large numbers that was possible. We were the girls of the avant garde”.
You don’t change anything by being nice and fitting in
– What do you say to the criticisms of the neo-feminists who distance themselves from the Redstocking movement – that it was too bombastic in its expression, burning bras and throwing lipsticks away, for example?
“Many neo-feminists actually think that the work done by the Redstockings was necessary, important and good. The people behind a book like the Swedish Fittstim, for instance, have said so clearly. But still – you don’t change the world by being nice and fitting in, but by violating boundaries. We had to break through the wall of tradition, and anyone who thinks that can be done by being nice hasn’t understood how movements change the world. It requires new ways of thinking and new praxis. It can be done by provoking outrage, by exceeding boundaries, but not by being nice”.
– Many neo-feminists wear bras and use lipstick, and wouldn’t dream of giving them up?
“That’s OK. The new generation is formed by its time and naturally distances itself from the previous women’s movement. The Redstockings did the same. We thought that the Danish Women’s Association were old-fashioned ladies in hats. Each generation needs its own mode of expression, and I think the young are doing a great job”, declares Drude Dahlerup, who thinks all the same that none of the women’s issues being addressed today in Nordic politics will succeed without a movement behind them.
“The Nordic women’s movement is in a slump just now, perhaps with the exception of Sweden, and also Iceland, where it is on the up and where a new women’s organisation has been started. But the women’s movement has always come in waves. We had a really good period in the 1880s, then again in 1910-20 around the fight for the vote, and then with the new mobilisation of women in the 1970s and 80s. These were periods of mass organisation, ideological discussions and high visibility. And then it became quiet. I think the women’s movement can be compared to the ocean: it comes in waves but can never be stopped”.
The women’s movement learns no lessons
It is typical of the women’s movement that it has not been very good at learning from the previous wave, Drude Dahlerup thinks. The women’s movement is always starting anew, she says.
“I think that this is partly due to what the writer Susan Faludi calls backlash: after every wave new anti-feminism emerged, constructing negative images of feminists. It makes me sad when today, younger people say, for example, about the angry Redstockings, ‘Weren’t you really all just lesbian man-haters with mauve napkins round your heads?’ The same thing happened in the 1930s after the peak of the struggle, when women had gained the vote. Now they had to get back into the kitchen. Then people said, ‘Weren’t they just a load of spinsters who couldn’t get a man?’. I see this as a general form of resistance which tries to hit women in the name of femininity, and young girls are hit very hard by it”.
– You say that the women’s movement is going through a slump at the moment, but there are still plenty of issues: the pornification of the public arena, the sale of g-strings for 9-year-old girls, silicone lips and breasts as confirmation presents, to name a few. Is the new generation of feminists simply too easy-going and slack?
“It’s correct that we now need a really strong women’s movement. However, there are many who address these issues in books and in the press etc. That’s great, and it takes courage, but to have any effect it will really be necessary to get into harness and break through the wall of powerful interests. This can only be done collectively, and so far we have only seen individual initiatives”, explains Drude Dahlerup; however, she sees new shoots springing up among young Swedish high-school girls, who are forming groups with feminist content.
“This might be the start of a new wave, because it always starts from the grassroots. Books like Fittstim, Femkamp etc. might also mark the beginning of a new wave”.
– Do you think this shows that things are moving in a positive direction?
“Shall I answer honestly?”
–Yes please.
“When I was asked the same thing ten years ago I thought that now something would happen, but I’m in doubt whether that is an expression of professional optimism or whether it’s realistic. So I’m in doubt. We’re up against powerful commercial adversaries.
“I’m a limited optimist. A spark is needed. Different factors have to ignite together for a movement to start. If I had a precise recipe I could start a large grassroots movement tomorrow, but it’s not as easy as that. But good God! There’s plenty to fight against.
Quotas – Nordic countries no longer a model
Drude Dahlerup believes that when it comes the next wave will be global and developments are much more likely to be sudden and rapid.
“The world is in a chaotic state, and it will be interesting to see whether women are able to make use of these new departures to take a leap forward. It will be necessary to seize the moment when it appears”, says Drude Dahlerup, who believes that this ability will make itself felt in many other areas of the world.
“The Nordic countries have driven in the slow track and practised gradualism – one step at a time – but from now on things will move in leaps”. Here Professor Dahlerup is thinking not least of how many years it has taken for women in Scandinavia to achieve democratic political representation. For the last two years Dahlerup has led the project “Quotas – a key to equality?”, which is considering the new trend in the world to increase women’s representation by introducing various forms of gender quotas at elections. Dahlerup is the architect behind this project, which is funded by the Swedish Science Council and carried out in collaboration with IDEA, the international organisation for democracy.
The purpose of the Quotas project is to follow the development in countries which introduce a gender-quota system in their parliaments. The work consists, among other things, of creating a debate by means of conferences and seminars, of promoting research in the individual countries, and of follow-up studies in areas where there is the risk that representation will be merely symbolic, with women functioning as puppets for powerful men. There are examples of this, and the Quotas project therefore follows the implementation of the rules scrupulously, but up to now Dahlerup has mainly positive stories to tell.
“Twelve Latin American countries have passed legislation for a quota system designed to get more women into their parliaments. The same has taken place in Southern Asia and Africa: we’re talking about countries like Bangladesh, India, Indonesia, even Morocco. It’s absolutely wild. You wouldn’t have thought it possible just 10 years ago – it’s simply extremely exciting. My point is that the Nordic countries are no longer a model in the field of equal opportunities and women’s representation. We who always used to be number one in the world league tables now have to keep up with Costa Rica, South Africa and Mozambique!”
“When I’m asked, out in the world, how long it took us in the Nordic countries before, for instance, 30% of our parliament members were women, and I answer ‘about 70-80 years’, I’m told, ‘We’re not going to wait that long’. They won’t wait, as we in teh Nordic countries have done, for women to develop resources in civil society, to progress in the sphere of education and employment, gradually grow stronger, and then are able to gain a greater degree of representation. So now we see countries, including some that are not democratic, which are taking enormously interesting historical leaps forward in terms of women’s numerical representation”.
Drude Dahlerup has learnt that a quota system for women cannot be realised without the support of an active women’s movement. “It’s always the women’s movements which push to make it succeed. They give support, they criticise, they see that women’s issues get on the agenda, etc. And in fact there are now centres for research into women’s issues all over the world. I can’t guarantee for North Korea; but one thing’s for sure: it’s not in Scandinavia that the women’s movement is making the greatest advances these days. It’s in the Third World. We may be overtaken some day by Costa Rica and South Africa, and I find this incredibly exciting. Denmark, in fact, has come to a complete halt”.
“I’ve changed”
– What gives Third World countries the energy and strength to get these things moving?
“Everyone I meet in the Third World countries says that the UN’s women’s Conferences, especially the one held in Beijing in 1995, have played an incredibly large role for the women’s movements. Drude Dahlerup stops for a moment, and continues: “And I have to admit that I have actually changed. When the first UN Women’s Conference was held in 1975, which was Women’s Year, many of us in the Danish Redstocking movement said ‘Yuck’. We just didn’t believe in it. Women’s Year for one year, and all the other years were Men’s Years. We laughed ourselves silly. All those ladies in smart costumes holding conferences, and so what? And when the Foreign Office sent delegates to a meeting on feminism we just thought it was far out. So I was among the grassroots who said, ‘Now you really have to stop. What good is all this to women?”. But I have to admit that for the Third World especially, the UN Women’s Conferences have been of enormous importance. An international network of feminists has been established, and despite the great differences between them they are able to make use of each other. It’s a support and gives legitimacy when women’s movements nationally can refer to international resolutions, after having translated these demands into the national discourse. “I can also see that in many countries equal opportunities are regarded as a sign of being modern. It’s part of the country’s image, and such images are being very important in the international community today. This is especially true of Latin America, and in fact also in this country. I don’t believe that the Chairman of the EU Commission wants more posts filled by women because he’s a feminist but because he’s thinking of his image. In Sweden all political parties except for two now call themselves feminists, and so does the Prime Minister.
Mainstreaming in the desk drawers
– But the Scandinavian countries are very different in the importance they give to equal opportunities. Denmark, for instance, has closed down the Equal Opportunities Council, and the functions of the previous Equal Opportunities Minister are now carried out under the aegis of the Social Minister. Suddenly it’s no longer acceptable to talk about equal opportunities in Denmark, but the opposite seems to be the case in Sweden and the rest of the Nordic countries.
“I quite agree. Recently I made an analysis for the Danish Power Investigation (Magtudredningen) comparing Denmark and Sweden. There is no doubt that Denmark has ground to a halt and is even hit by a backlash. This can be blamed not only on the present Liberal-Conservative government but also on the previous Social Democrat administration. According to contemporary Danish discourse equality is more or less obtained, while in Sweden there is still long to go! For example, I compared the opening speeches in the Danish and Swedish Parliaments. Poul Nyrup Rasmussen, the previous Danish Prime Minister, mentioned the term equal opportunities for the first and only time in his opening speech in 1993, whilst Swedish prime ministers, no matter what their party affiliation, speak about equal opportunities, feminism, violence against women, the education of immigrant women, etc, in every single opening speech or government formation. It’s very strange, because Denmark was so famous for its strong mobilisation of women back in the 1970s, when women from all the Nordic countries flocked to the feminist summer camp at Femø. Denmark is lagging behind in relation to Norway, Iceland and Finland, and this trend started back in the 1990s.
– Why do you think this is so?
“Denmark is such a laissez faire nation. In Sweden and Norway they know there’s still a lot to fight for. In Denmark we think we’ve achieved equal opportunities, and we’ve brought in mainstreaming strategy, which hasn’t had any effect, however. The idea that equal opportunities should permeate all institutions is fundamentally good, but the chances of a flop are great. How can mainstreaming be implemented in the Ministry of Transportation , for example, where no one has any competence in equality policies? There are plenty of equal opportunity plans in desk drawers everywhere, but the implementation is lousy”.
– What went wrong, apart from the laissez faire mentality which you say prevails in Denmark?
“That’s a difficult question. As I said, the women’s movement has always proceeded in waves. There’s very little organisation in Denmark: some professional people are doing a fine job, but the grassroots level has completely disappeared. The official equal opportunities policy, state feminism, needs a strong, critical women’s movement at the grassroots level. But the Nordic countries as a whole are not at the crest of the wave”, says Drude Dahlerup, who hopes, professional optimism aside, that the wave will come with an international burst of foam which will go down in history.
First published in NIKK magasin 3 2004 © NIKK
